Warpstabs for good and bad

To be honest? My opinion is to stop whining about it. Everyone reading this site knows you don't like stabs. :)

When I travel I fit stabs, otherwise I fit hardeners (since I armor tank and just fight NPCs anyway). I just don't have the space in my low slots for two or more stabs while ratting. Yeah, it sucks that I can't fit the stabs, because it makes NPC'ing in low sec space risky for me. I try to avoid any and all pirates that I see, but sometimes it's not easy.

When I get blown up, you won't hear me bitching that you had a scrambler or a webber, or a bigger gun, or whatever else.

If someone gets away from you, too bad for you. Good for them. If they don't, good for you.

SIGNED/



Ander speaks the truth Anja warp stabs 4tl (it just has to be said) . Its the cowards way out and i like the idea of warp stbas being used just for travel.

Well.. the problem is when ruptures with 5x stabs use it for NPC:ing.

People have been repeating the same thing over and over.
RISK VS REWARD!

Only time I ever fitted a stab was on an indy :P
Tacklers don't need stabs unless you can fit em on your pod :D

It depends on the situation really. Stabs on someone who seeks out pirates and engages them, only to flee is rather cowardly. But stabs on someone who's NPC'ing and just tries to avoid and get away from any pirates is a perfectly valid use of them. Nothing cowardly about it.

If that was considered cowardly, then so would be any uneven battle (Vagabond + thorax vs 1 thorax, or a gate camp, etc).

I understand your frustration Ander, but your missing your own point. Yes, Warpstabs were created for travel, and people have found a more creative use for them. Bookmarks were created to remember specific locations, but people found a more creative use for them (insta's). I know plenty of pirates that use them, and swear by them.
The worst problem I see is that you don't even realize how thin your arguement is. The key is risk vs reward. You risked attacking a ship without enough scramblers to stop him, you lost your reward. You know how many low slots they have. Plan accordingly.
And by the way, I too am a pirate. And I will defend WCS's till the end of time. But, no, I don't use them myself.

I agree with every thing Ander said.

Some of the few arguments the other side has are:
Just bring more people (ganking)
Use interdictors (expensive t2 ships)
Use bubbles (which can only be used in 0.0 and required time to anchor...)
But we must remember the carebear mind is close minded and delicate. They _kindof_ understand the risks of low security, but they want the reward WITHOUT the risk. They want to be as close to 100% safe as possible, still with the 100% reward. They dont understand how WCS alter fleet combat in 0.0 aswell. An Aliiance/person who can warpout-repair-warpbackin-and continue fighting, that alliance will win almost 100% of the time. A fleet isnt going to let an interdicter or buble set up a bubble close to them when theyre already aligned (except when the fleets jumping in ofc).
If your too the point where you have to form a mini fleet and gank a lone cruiser in a belt, or gimp your entire med slot thus gimping your entire setup (med slots are key), some thing is wrong..VERY wrong.

its pretty pathetic though when ppl use all lowslots for wcs.
i nailed a PFJ sac today that had 4 stabs destroyed[fitted] and he had 2 more in the can.
mind you that the sac only got 5 lowslots so he was scared enough to have a extra.

i just dont get it when ppl got 5 or 6 stabs and run around trying to shoot ppl.
i just make sure i scramble for more then their lowslots nowadays.
sad but true.

How typical, gripping about not being able to scram someone. Stop whining about the use of WCS, if a dude wants to use'em so what. I'd guess you'll only be happy when your name in local disables all ships when you get within 100km's of them, if you stacked damage mods in the past you don't have an arguement here. Its only going to get worse when they introduce even more effect WCS in the future. You can only pride yourself on not using them and be doubly gratified when you take someone out who is using them. Move on to the next soapbox to harp about.

There we have it folks, an alt speaks. And I notice you say _A_ Dude, with RMR theres been alot more dudes using them.

Consider this. On most cruisers I can either I fit 2x shortrange warpscramblers for 4 points total. The chance of grabbing someone with this setup is close to zero due to the fact you'd need to land within 10k or mwd up to someone who isnt paying attention.

This still makes people using 4 warpstabs invurnurable.

Or I can fit 1x shortrange and 1x longrange. Hitting someone with one point does make it possible to catch those who still doesnt fit a full rack of warpstabs.
But those who do learn to fit warpstabs wont just fit one, they'll fit several making the closerange unusable aswell.

I've seen ishkurs fitting 2 warpstabs, seen ruptures with 5x, tempest with 3x.
And they were all fitted for PVP. They could do exactly the same damage as I could.
I'm arguing for that warpstabs should limit the fighting use of a ship. In the long run, if warpstab hell keeps up I guess I too will have to jump on that train.
Dropping one or two low slots for warpstabs just to keep on par with all PVP:ers who fight "safe".

It still remain a big disadvantage for gallente users who still rely on low-slots for hardeners which leaves very few slots available for warpstabs.
Considering that the raven and many other racial ships can pack a load of warpstabs without affecting the damage output that greatly. Unless of course you want to fit BCU's. You'll be able to pack 3 of those, leaving a couple low-slots free for warpstabs since the raven is mainly shieldboosting&shieldhardening which uses medium slots.

Once again, warpstabs are supposed to be for traveling. It's not a good thing that they become mainstream in the common pvp-setup where they dont belong.

When people cant do more damage by risking to put on more damage-mods they will resort to the use of warpstabs since more than 3x damage-mods is just a waste.

Those bitching about 'blablabla ebil piwate shouldn't be able to scramble everyone blablabla' needs to realise it's *PVP* setups that are fitting excessive amounts of WCS, not innocent haulers/miners/traders/bird watchers.

When a geddon with 7 stabs can sit around blasting at my corps miners from 100+KM without anything to fear unless we get a 2 stiletto (3x 2 point scrams each) tackling team + gankships together something is drastically wrong.

I can't fit 7 damage mods to wreak havoc, why is he allowed to fit 7 stabs to do the same?

Uhmm ...

your explanation of risk vs. reward is wrong ...

you say - "risk = possibility to get NO reward"

in common - "risk = possibility to lose something AND get no reward"

this means - a pirates takes the risk when he engages someone, that his target wtfpwn him ...

if a pirate attacks someone who warps off because of WCS - i wouldn't call it a "risk vs. reward" thing

it's the same with some gatecampers ... snipping and filled with WCS - it's also a allmost riskfree business.

and as dexus said ... WCS in fleet battles are not only annoying - they are deciding a battle ... so WCS are allmost a "must-have" for fleetbattles ... and a "must-have"-module seems kinda unbalanced to me

make stabs only fit on haulers

Probelm solved

I totally agree that any one who fits WCS for PvP is an utter pussy and abject coward. Fitting wcs does totally nerf a PVP setup - they are too expansive power and cpu wise. Basically a wcs set up is saying - "I expect to lose so I will fit to be able to run".
However fitting wcs per se is not bad idea in certain circumstances. I have been rattin in a 'thron and, rather embarassedly, had to call frig corpies to deal with the 3 serp spies that have me scrammed and into armor tank. Solution - I now fit wcs to my setup with no tank what so ever with dam mods also in los. I kill all npcs so fast that I never get below half shield. A slight change of drones means I deal with frigs faster. The 'side-effect' is that one day I was at the end of a 10hr ratting stint. I had become hypnotised that local had been empty or unagressive all day. I was just loading last can of loot from my tractor beam when a 'wolf' warps into my belt. Quick glance at local as warp gets upto speed - ah crap 28! locals. I sure hope about now that a second tackler isn't about to warp in n lock. Wolf goes red - now to find out if he has 1 or 2 scrammers - warp accel continues - insta dock station. I notice on my way in that theres a 'Raven' linin up on where I just was.
A slight change in tactics either way would have brought very different conclusion to this encounter. Two tacklers warpin in together - I'm dead, A tackler with 2 str2 scrams - I'm dead, Fitting all med drones and an armour tank - I'm dead.
All that will happen is tactics and ship set-ups will change and it will be harder to get solo kills on ships with plenty of lo slots.
As always with CCP everything is a trade off - offensive/ defensive, run/fight etc

OK, I can see your point from the pirate side, but consider this from the rest of EVE's perspective: why is it only ok for you to have an advantage? Why should only you be able to scramble someone without them having any way of counteracting you?

I dont believe a lot of pirating currently taking place is PVP in any real sense of the word. You call it PVP but what's happening is simply criminal behviour, some times to the point of psycopathy, so please dont whine about someone upsetting the applecart that only you want access to. The idea of being held to ransom is no different from being mugged on the street. If you try mugging someone who has a can of mace, or a gun, or a very large knife, then you may very well get what you deserve. Much the same is happening EVE. If you can't handle the victim fighting back, then tough shit.

If using WCS's allows more balance in the game then I'm all for it. There are also far too many so-called pirates claiming to earn an "honest" living that use WCS's. But then that's just another consequence of the game.

You are always going to get anti-social behviour in any society. The key point here is that you, as a pirate, are the person behaving anti-socially, not the victim.

To be fair, yes it's partly risk vs reward, but the risk should not be shared inequitably. Maybe a better idea would be to remove both warp scramblers and WCS's from eve, but I imagine there would be baying at the moon (from both sides) for many a week if that were to happen.

Bottom line? The technology exists...so deal with it.

Ok, I see your points well enough, but we still have the arguement that WCS's are a fair mod. The fairest idea I could come up with is this: Make it impossible to fit more than 2 WCS's on any COMBAT vessel. It wouldn't be difficult to alter the code to make it so that any ship fitting more than 2 high slot weapons cannot fit more than 2 WCS's.
I'm not saying it is the best idea, but it is possible.
And, by the way, my explanation of risk vs reward is not wrong. Just because you interpret it differently, does not make it wrong. Welcome to the English language. It may be difficult, but you'll get it. Keep trying.

By the way, for all those complaining about people using WCS's in combat, let me refer you to these fine works.
Under the Black Flag: The Romance and the Reality of Life Among the Pirates (Harvest Book) by David Cordingly (Paperback - Sep 15, 1997)
The History of Pirates by Angus Konstam and David Cordingly (Paperback - Aug 1, 2002)
If you read these, you will see that many pirates ran at the first sign of trouble. Some even gave up piracy because of their level of cowardice.
You argue that WCS's are ruining your ability to roleplay a pirate. What about someone else's ability to roleplay a coward? They should be given the same level of respect as you.
And, again, before the flames begin, I don't use WCS's. So, argue intelligently.

Pirates, as it stands today, do NOT have the advantage. The carebears do. Why? As Ander said, people who fit WCS in PvP ships, despite the lack of a good PvP setup, are STILL able to equal the damage of most PvP vessels. Instead of being fitted for just running or just ganking, they can do BOTH. Look at Ginger Magician for example. His profession is almost risk-free because of the WCS he constantly fits, yet he still has PLENTY of range and PLENTY of power to be able to shoot anything he wants. THIS is what Ander says is messed up, and I agree with him. Why should a ship kitted for RUNNING have an advantage over a ship that is kitted for COMBAT?

Let me throw the question back at you. Why must YOU always have the advantage? Low-sec space was intended to be risky, but now, if you fit the right number of WCS, you can gank AND run at the same time, with little or no risk. YOU are the one who wants all-reward for no-risk. You are afraid of a potential stacking penalty for WCS. There is one for damage mods and tanking modules, so it's only FAIR that WCS get the same, but you are afraid that...."OMG! PvP will actually require that I fit for COMBAT! I can't run around in my (near)-risk-free utopia (low-sec) and gank people and be able to run at the same time!"

It's also funny that, whenever a carebear ganks a pirate with more numbers, it's perfectly OK, but when a pirate ganks a carebear with more numbers, it's "incredibly lame." Well, if our targets can no longer fit full lowslots of WCS for near-risk-free PvP, then we pirates won't need 4 tacklers and a BS just to outscramble all the WCS! Problem solved. Less ganking, more real PvP. Less WCS = more REAL PvP. PvP was INTENDED to be RISKY. If you can't deal with that and need to fit multiple stabs just to insure your near-invulnerability, then so be it. YOU will be the one complaining if a stacking penalty is introduced, because you will not be able to have your risk-free PvP anymore.

all i need to say,,

Ginger Magician - Sniper Mega

Camps gates at 230km and fits 7WCS,

My scorp now has 4 str2 scrammers to catch this joke.

i use WCS
not always and never a full rack.

what i got a gripe about is ppl who fit 4+ stabs and then goes out ganking with it.

there is a ship that is perfect for holding down ppl with loads of stabs.
if you want to know then send 25mill to Malken ingame and ill send you the info and the setup

Whats with all this fighting and running is a cowardly act crap? Hit and runs, whether by pirates, bounty hunters, or people in an active war, has always been a strategicaly good move - look at the the rebs in the US war of independence, or the Boers in South Africa, or just about any resistane fighters in WW2. If fitting stabs in Eve mean you can take on an enemy AND have a good chance of running if things go wrong is not only a good thing but is also just as brave and honorable an act as the generations of guerilla and freedom fighters all over the world have done throughout history. Its a damn site braver than camping a gate with a gang of 10 muthafukkas and blowing hell out of everything that comes through.

What you fail to realise is that hit and runs usually mean you strike a specific target. It takes advantage of the enemy's disorientation. However, if you get caught you usually get caught bad during hit and runs. What warpstabs do is provide an insurance that you'll get out without trouble, even when the enemy is organised and ready for your hit and run.

The problem is that with using warpstabs (as before) it doesnt severily limit your ships combat-ability versus a ship without warpstabs.
In the past, a ship could load up damage-mods instead to do much more damage. With the stacking-penalty that means those who used a load of damage-mods may fit warpstabs instead. There's no way to gain an edge on a ship with warpstabs by risking to carry less warpstabs in favour of damage, as before.

I see nothing wrong with stabs and scrambler tbh. Sure i get annoyed sometimes, but it's all part of the game. If someone doesn't utilize them and just whines about them, then i think thats their problem. Personally, i use them for skirmish warfare and hit and run attacks.